The Road to Advocacy: From RV Parks to Healthcare Reform featuring Terry McLellan

In this episode of the Patient Advocacy Now Podcast, Terry McLellan, a seasoned patient advocate, shares her journey from nursing to becoming an independent patient advocate. Her transition was fueled by her experiences as a travel home health nurse, where she identified a significant need for patient advocacy, particularly among older individuals in RV parks. This realization, coupled with the challenges brought by the COVID-19 pandemic, inspired her to establish her own advocacy practice in December 2020.

Terry emphasizes the importance of patients having access to information about their medical treatments and medications. She also discusses her efforts to work with local lawmakers to create legislation allowing patients to have independent advocates, particularly in hospitals where information sharing can be problematic. Building strong relationships with hospital staff, such as nurses, is a key component of ensuring patients receive the best possible care.

Terry further highlights the growing role of patient advocates and the need for stronger advocacy in the evolving healthcare system. She mentions the significant growth in attendance at the Healthcare Advocate Summit, underscoring the rising recognition of the need for patient advocates. Additionally,

Transcript

Host

Terry McClellan, thank you for being on the patient advocacy now podcast. I'm thrilled to talk to you. You have nearly four decades of experience in the healthcare field. I think where I want to start is you, you started your patient, uh, independent patient advocacy practice in 2020. What was the impetus? Why did you go from nursing to deciding it's time to shift to independent patient advocacy?

Terry McLellan

Good question. 2018, we left. My husband retired from 25 years of AT&T. We bought an RV and we decided to travel the US for two years and I did travel home health. And in our travels, we were staying in RV parks and my husband, God love him, would brag about me as being a nurse. And most of our RV parks have people 65 and older in them.

Host

Oh, fun.

Terry McLellan

and they would all walk up to me with their list of ailments and what's going on and how can I help them? And then my husband said, there must be a market for this. And so we started researching and found that there is a market for independent advocacy. And then of course our world got hit with the pandemic. Home health got hit hard. So travel nurses that were in home health

Host

I'm sorry.

Terry McLellan

there was no work for them because they were doing all they could do to put their own nurses to work because when they canceled elective procedures, you know, nobody was getting hips or shoulders or whatever. So that's when I came back to Texas.

Host

Let's put a pause for a sec. When you say you were a home health nurse for people not in the nursing industry. So were you working under the umbrella of a hospital? Were you independent at that point?

Terry McLellan

No, so there are home health agencies that provide nurses to the home setting. And when I say travel nurse, basically we would travel the country. I would look for an assignment that was about 13 weeks long and work for a company in Florida in the middle of winter so I could be in a beautiful place, right? Or up in the Midwest in the summertime so I could be in a cool place. And so we got to travel the country.

Host

Mm-hmm.

Host

Yeah.

Terry McLellan

while I was still working. So that's, yeah, for sure. And so when we came back to Texas, I have a company here that I was a supervisor for, and I was doing all of their recruiting while I was on the road as well. And they needed a nurse in the field. So I said, okay, I'll be that nurse and came back to do that and then started studying for my PCBA.

Host

It's like being an Uber nurse. You just kind of decide where you want to drive, you know?

Terry McLellan

and took my test in October and passed, and we opened my independent advocacy practice in December of 2020. So it was the traveling and seeing all the people that needed help, that couldn't find the help, and that I realized because of our, again, because we're short staffed,

there's Medicare and Medicaid cutbacks left and right. A lot of people don't understand that nurses and PTs and OTs, their paycheck or their salary is determined based off of what health insurances pay, hospitals or home cares. So if there's cutbacks, you're not getting a raise. You know, in nursing, if you've been a seasoned nurse like I have for years, you haven't seen a raise in 20 years because a company can't pay you

more than they're getting reimbursed. So that kind of was the litmus for me to say, okay, let's do this.

Host

So it sounds like it was a combination of both a business opportunity, but also seeing that there's so many people who need help and just don't know where to get it.

Terry McLellan

Absolutely. And I was helping people while I traveled across the country for free. And I don't mind doing that. And to this day, I have, um, 10% of my profits that come in my business, I put aside as a benevolent fund so that if somebody needs help, um, and they can't afford it, I have, I set aside funds to be able to help people pro bono.

Host

You kind of tithe your own time that way. That's kind of.

Terry McLellan

Yet I tithe my time and my money in my business, not only to God, but to people who need it.

Host

Yeah, I think that's beautiful. Where have you found yourself most surprised moving into the advocacy space?

Terry McLellan

I think the biggest surprise that I have found recently is I am shocked and appalled at hospitals declining, refusing, feeling as though they don't have to give patients a list of their meds, what they're taking them for, the side effects to them, why they've been prescribed. And I have found that

Host

Thank you.

Host

So that's never, so that's never happened to me personally. Give me an example of, of this, like, let me, you know, cause, cause a lot of people hear that and go, that can't be happening because we just don't have that experience. Some of us, and there, I'm sure there are people listening going that absolutely happened. But for those of us who haven't had that unfortunate experience, walk me through how that happens and how you as an advocate know that.

Terry McLellan

Sure.

Terry McLellan

Sure.

So about three months ago, I had a client who reached out to me. It was a gay couple. And the partner reached out to me and said, hey, we're in the hospital. We have been in the hospital for six weeks. The patient, the partner's husband's spouse, had a debilitating diagnosis of cancer, multiple lesions in the brain.

There was some other diagnoses that were personal that they wanted to keep personal. Um, and one of the reasons they reached out to me is they said, we have all these medications and we don't know what they are. We don't know what they do. We're not sure what's happening. Nobody's talking to us. And so I met them. You know, I met with them, did the initial assessment. They brought me on board. And when we went to the hospital and met with the nurse and the charge nurse,

Host

You

Terry McLellan

the very first time I was in the hospital. And I requested for the partner a copy of the medications. The direct words out of the charge nurse's mouth is, we cannot give that to you. You're gonna have to fill out a request for medical records to get that. And my work.

Host

They wouldn't tell, they wouldn't give you a list of all the medications he was on.

Terry McLellan

Right. And honestly, I didn't want them. The partner did. The medical power of attorney, the actual client, because of the lesions on the brain, was considered unable to really help himself because he was having seizures and he just wasn't alert and oriented. He was incapacitated to the point where his partner had assigned medical power of attorney and was the one that was kind of taking care of him.

Host

A partner wanted him.

Terry McLellan

And I was just floored. I was shocked. I never in my 30 years of nursing

Host

And let me ask you, do you, do you think if the, if the patient wasn't incapacitated and he asked for it himself, they would give him a hard time as well? Did it come because it came from a spouse? Do you have any idea?

Terry McLellan

So I would like to say that was the case, but I have three other examples. One was literally two weeks ago, a 21 year old young lady in the hospital. They're trying to rule out a disease called POTS. I don't know if you know what that is, but it causes some sinkable episodes where you can drop and pass out. And the interesting thing is she presented 50% POTS, 50% not POTS. So it was kind of like,

Host

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Terry McLellan

show of Dr. House, right? We're trying to figure out what really is going on here. 21-year-old young lady that grew up in the foster care system has a three-year-old daughter. So she's been abused, neglected in untrustworthy places for most of her life. And they were not giving her a list of medications that she was taking. The nurse literally came in the room and said, here's your pills. Let me scan your watch. Here you go. Or her band to, you know, uh,

Host

Yeah.

Terry McLellan

document she was giving them. Yep. And the young lady said, could you tell me what I'm taking? The nurse said, well, this is the pills the doctor ordered. So I stopped her and I said, stop right there. Please tell me what those pills are. Tell your patient why they're prescribed and why she's taking them. Here's the sad part. The nurse didn't even know what they were because they're unique to the disease. And I'm okay not knowing. Look it up.

Host

to make sure, yeah, sure.

Host

in the next video.

Terry McLellan

let's say, you know what, I've not heard of this, let me research it, you know? And that happened right in front of me. And so, silence.

Host

So what was her response? The nurse.

Terry McLellan

So, and then when I said, well, could you tell them, can I look at them? She said, well, are you on her PHI? Patient history information. In some hospitals now, they have what they call emergency contacts, and then they have PHI. If you're an emergency contact, you don't get any medical information. You can only get medical information if you're a PHI. So,

Host

Yeah.

Host

What's the point of having the emergency contact without the PHI? Your, your, your husband or wife is sick. Good luck. I mean, like, what's the, I don't understand.

Terry McLellan

please answer that question for me and we'll answer the million dollar question. So, thank you.

Terry McLellan

Yep. So the patient was sitting right there saying, please tell my advocate what the drugs are so she can explain it to me. So she did tell me the name of the drugs. I was able to explain it to her. And one of them, I had to look up. I wasn't familiar with it. I'm not saying we have to know everything. We can't possibly know everything. That wouldn't have happened. She would have taken

Host

I'm not sure. Yeah.

Host

But if you weren't in the room...

Yeah.

Terry McLellan

And for all you know, she could have took wrong medicine. Because a lot of people say, because we scan the band, that there's no way we can mess up. But there's override systems. If a doctor writes an acute PRN med, a nurse can override that and give it, and accidentally give a wrong med to a wrong patient. So.

Host

Yeah. And I've seen it firsthand where people are at a surgery and they have to sign paperwork and they don't have an advocate or a loved one there. And I've been visiting as a friend and they're signing things that they have zero recollection of that they have zero ability to comprehend because they're still, you know, recovering from the anesthetic.

Terry McLellan

That is very correct. That happened.

Host

So how do we fix that? How do we fix this?

Terry McLellan

One of the ways that I'm looking to fix it where I'm at, I'm in Texas, I'm in North Texas. I say Dallas, because everybody knows where Dallas is, but I'm in a town called McKinney, so it's north of Dallas. One of the things I'm working on is meeting with my local Congress and Senate, because I would like to work on a bill that states that every person can have an independent patient advocate, whether it's a paid advocate or whether it's a family friend.

or whatever, and that when they go to the hospital, that the hospitals have to speak to them and talk to them, provided the client who's hired them has said, yes, I want this person to fight and to, not fight, that's the wrong word, to educate and to be here to help me understand what's going on with me. Because I feel like we have to start with our government and...

Host

Mm-hmm.

Host

Mm-hmm.

Terry McLellan

That's a whole nother sticky issue. So.

Host

Yeah, but I hear what you're saying. If there's legal red tape, it makes it harder for them to kick you out of the room, makes it harder for them to deny information. And so the, it kind of arms you with those tools so that you can advocate more effectively for your clients. Is that really the whole like idea behind it?

Terry McLellan

That is really the whole truth. And I do want to back up. I don't want to make it sound like hospitals are doing something wrong. We live in a very electronic age. And so there's so much fraud that can happen electronically that honestly, I think that these things that are happening are being put in place for protection, but we got to figure out the.

Host

What kind of fraud are you talking about?

Terry McLellan

For example, if I were to fax in a release of information, it's real easy to forge a signature, send in a release of information and say, yes, I'm this person's advocate or whatever. I'm just stating that as an example. We know that can happen. So what I'm saying is for hospitals to want to hear it from the client or the patient makes sense to me. But once that's...

Host

Mm-hmm.

Terry McLellan

happened, we're still fighting a battle. You know what I mean? And so I guess what I'm saying is that I think hospitals are trying to respond and doctor's offices to the fact that we have so much elder fraud, we have so much medical chances of fraud, that this is their way of fixing it, but in their way of fixing it, I feel like they're compromising patient rights.

Host

Mm-hmm.

Host

Got it. Got it. Do you feel like all the legalities and the fear of being sued and fear of fraud has really been detrimental to the hospitals as well as the patients?

Terry McLellan

So I think that's part of it. And I think the word advocate for healthcare advocates, navigators, I think it brings up kind of like, oh my gosh, are they watching my P's and Q's and am I gonna be sued? So we have to do a better job of educating our hospitals and doctor's offices. And this came up yesterday. I had that same 21 year old was gonna be discharged and it came out of nowhere. And in the discharge planning,

Host

So now.

Terry McLellan

because I wasn't the PHI, I was only an emergency contact, they didn't wanna talk to me. And I said, great, you don't have to talk to me, let me talk to you. You can't give me information, but I can give you information, because the client has said I could. Number one, number two, pick up the phone, call my client, she'll tell you, you can talk to me. But that was too easy, the caseworker didn't wanna do that. So I basically said, listen, I have zero problem with discharge. What I want is 30 days of meds,

a follow-up cardiologist, a follow-up PCP, not a name, not a number, an actual appointment in network with this young lady's Medicaid, you know, so that she doesn't get discharged and she doesn't really have an appointment because that happens a lot. They just throw a name on a paper and they say call them, work it out. But what they don't do is they don't check the insurance. Because she's from the foster system, she has Medicaid and she has one of the

Host

Yeah.

Terry McLellan

lower paying, harder to find in network doctor insurances. So I wanted to make sure that was happening. I also wanted her to have a wheelchair, a walker, a shower chair. She's got this syndrome that she can pass out from. She needs to have the ability to, yeah, and be safe. And so I said to the caseworker, I said, I'm not trying to stop the discharge. I'm trying to make sure we get everything. And I was there on Monday and there was no,

Host

Mm-hmm.

Host

That's it.

Terry McLellan

talk of discharge for Wednesday. If there was, I would have said all of this on Monday. So here we are four o'clock in the afternoon and they halted everything. I called the doctor, they got everything I requested for the patient to be discharged and she got discharged about 5.30. In doing that, what I said to the case manager is I said, look, I'm not here to fight you. I'm here to help you. If you need me to call the insurance to find out what doctors are in network,

I will do that for you. I know that you have five, you know, 50, 60 patients. I have one, her. So let me help you help her. So I think we've got to do a really better job of educating the people. I think they hear patient advocate and they freak out and they're like, oh my God, they're here to see everything I'm doing wrong. No, we're here to prevent mistakes and to help you and to help the patient.

because neither one of us want that client back in the hospital, right? And with the new rules, if you're back within 30 days with the same diagnosis, insurances are trying not to pay, rightfully so. So let's do it right the first time. It takes a little more.

Host

Absolutely.

Host

Yeah. And you know what? You, you being a nurse, I mean, you could probably empathize with the idea that if you're kind to the nurses and you let them know this idea that you are on their side, um, it just makes everything easier. I mean, I was told by another advocate, it was a brilliant idea is bring candy for your nurses and bring little treats, but keep it in your room so that they come to you to get the candy and you get those constant check-ins.

Terry McLellan

Oh yeah.

Terry McLellan

Yes, I do. There's something out here called All About Bunts. They're little tiny cupcakes. I call them all about butts because I feel like it goes right to my butt. So whenever I have a client in the hospital, I buy 20 of those mini, or 12, 12 of those mini cupcakes, it's like 20 bucks. So it's super easy. I bring it to the nurse's station, but then I also bring something for the client to have in their room so when the nurses or the doctors walk in, they can offer them something.

Host

Mm-hmm.

Host

Little buntinis or something, yeah.

Terry McLellan

And not a lot of money, but enough. Listen, if you feed a nurse, they will come. You know the movie with the baseball field, build it, they'll come. When you're in the hospital, you bring food. They're your best friend. And you want the nurses on your side. Number one, they're the ones that are with you most of the time. They're the ones that are taking care of you. And they're the ones that will fight for you with the doctor. So as much as yes, you want the doctor to hear you and be on your side, if you've got the nurse on your side,

Host

Yeah.

Terry McLellan

the PT and the OT on your side, the doctor will come around.

Host

Yeah. What have you learned as an advocate now that you've been doing it for a few years that you wish you knew as a nurse?

Terry McLellan

Oh, good question.

You know what, I'm gonna be totally honest. We always say when you come in the hospital, it's your choice, you have a right. But the reality is in the hospital setting, we run the show. The hospital makes you feel like it's your choice in your show, but really, if we've got a med pass at 7 a.m., we're passing that med at 7 a.m., even if you don't want it at 9 a.m. Because we've got 20 other things to do. Is that right or wrong? No. How can we fix that?

Host

You know what? I'm going to go.

Host

No.

Terry McLellan

I really feel like it's just a conversation. Hey, I don't really wake up and eat my breakfast till nine. I know it's asking a lot for you to put my seven o'clock med off till nine, but can we ask the doctor if that's okay? You know, I know that you have to take vital signs every four hours. I'm in here for regulation of my coumadin. Could we get an order from the doctor that says from 12 p.m. to six a.m. that I can sleep without being interrupted?

Host

I know.

Terry McLellan

You know, so there are things like that, that as an advocate I've helped people fight for, that I didn't necessarily, it's a different mindset. Because when you're working in the hospital, you have things you have to do, you have rules you have to follow and schedules. And honestly, especially today, you're getting five to six patients if you're on day shifts, sometimes seven. And at night you might have eight or nine, and you just cannot adequately take care of that many people.

So those family members that, those patients that have family members there, when I was in the hospital, I was very grateful for them. And I would say, listen, not your problem, but this is how many people I have. If you see something and I don't catch it, please come get me. If I'm not answering your call bell, please come get me. Today, we have a lot of young nurses. Typically, when you go to nursing school, you're like, oh, nurses make great money.

Host

And I'm happy to be here with you today. And I want to thank you all for joining us.

Terry McLellan

And when you're 23, yeah, they make great money. When you're my age, you're coming out of school and you're making what I make as an RN. That's a little frustrating to me, but the other side of that coin is we have a lot of people going into medicine for money. And you can tell the difference. When I'm in a hospital setting and a nurse comes in, I can tell if she's in nursing for the money or for the client. And that's also

Host

by the compassion or how do you think?

Terry McLellan

passion, lack of empathy, you know? And so because of that, and because of the pandemic, a lot of our nurses that we have now were trained on simulators and online. They weren't trained with real human beings. So they have not learned, you know, the dummy doesn't talk back, right? So when you're teaching a skill, right.

Host

and it doesn't have a difficult mother.

Terry McLellan

Right. So we have a lot of medical people that are in healthcare today that were trained during the pandemic. And I would question were they really trained because we did the best we could because we still need people. Oh, the state of Texas has lost 1.2 million medical staff.

Host

We're still short nurses. Yeah.

Host

Yeah.

Terry McLellan

since COVID, whether it be because of COVID, whether it be because of vaccine mandates, whatever the reason. And no new people are coming in as quickly as people are getting out.

So, you know, it's a, because of that alone, you need an advocate. And I have really found, you know, I only had one case out of the medication issues where the hospital just flat refused. The other cases, like the young lady, I was there on Monday or last Friday, the doctor came in and I said, Hey doc, they're not giving us a list of meds.

Host

Yeah.

Host

Thank you.

Terry McLellan

And his response is, well, our system doesn't let us print it unless it's on discharge. I said, that's great. Can you read them off to me and can I write them down? And then can I get education forms myself for the client? He was like, absolutely. Well, he read them so fast. It's a good thing I was a nurse for 30 years because I knew most of them and I could write them down. So at least he was able to do that for me. And he understood what I said when I said, this is a patient right issue. And you're asking your client, how did that

med make you feel? Do you feel less dizzy? Do you feel less this? She goes, which med? What are you talking about?

Terry McLellan

You know?

Host

You know what's so fascinating about the advocacy space as, as new as it is, and it's in really in its infancy, because there are individuals like yourself who come in so qualified because of their experience in the healthcare system, even though it's a new and kind of brand new, you know, space, the experience is so vast because you can, you, you touch on so much that your, that your history brings to the table.

Um, and you and you've died, you've dove in essentially kind of head first into this space. I know that you've been like a speaker on some panels, you went to a, uh, a summit, uh, in NOLA. Um, how, how have you watched, how have, how has the industry changed? How have those summits changed like year to year? Do you see it kind of changing in drastic ways? Is it still, is the growth still kind of slow?

What would you like see changed? I mean, I'm really kind of curious about the industry as a whole from your perspective.

Terry McLellan

So the healthcare advocate summit this year, in my opinion, was phenomenal. So I wanna say, what year are we in? 2023, so 2021, the first healthcare advocate summit was in Galveston. I wanna say there was three independent advocates there. In 2022, it was in NOLA, and we had 10 independent advocates there. This year, it was in NOLA, and I will say,

Greater National Advocates, Chacao, the board certified patient advocate committee, everybody really promoted the healthcare advocate summit and they actually created an independent track. And I wanna say, I could be off of my numbers, but I wanna say we had about 150 independent advocates there.

Host

What's explosive exponential growth? Well, from 3 to 10 to 120. Yeah, it's huge.

Terry McLellan

from 10 last year to, I mean.

Right, right. Yeah, and when I took my BCPA in 2020, we had less than a thousand certified patient advocates. Now I wanna say we're hitting close to 2,500, 3,000. I don't know the exact number. I'd have to get on their site to look. So it's becoming a talked about subject to the point where at the summit there was an educator

Host

No.

Terry McLellan

from a nursing school that wanted to kind of promote independent advocacy in a school setting. I have opinions about that. I feel like it's hard to be an independent advocate coming right out of school without any medical experience at all. So unless you're a person that's in school that's taking care of a sick loved one or something like that, I'm not sure how that will play out.

but I think it's awesome that people are looking at it and talking about it and wanting to create a curriculum around it. And so I got to speak with that instructor just a little bit briefly and I love the ideas that are formulating. So I think we're gonna start seeing this become an avenue for people. The question's gonna be, and the question always is, we have probably

not even probably, we definitely have way more people that need an advocate than can afford a private independent advocate. And so one of the other things that I believe all advocates are trying to do is figure out a way to also get the needed help to those that can't afford it. I know that we've got care partners.

Host

That's a systemic issue that comes up constantly. I can't, yeah, I mean, everybody keeps saying the same thing is like the people, some of the people who need it the most just have no means.

Terry McLellan

So I feel like, and I network in Texas with several independent advocates and most of us are faith believers and most of us have set apart a way to help people like that. You also have the side of the coin where people say they don't have the ability to get the help but they're throwing money away on cartons of cigarettes or alcohol or whatever. And my attitude is I will help anybody.

but let's put money where your health concerns are. And if that money is only $10, I feel like a person will value what they get from you if it has to cost them a little bit and also if they have to have some skin in the game. So...

Host

Yeah, the old expression is if you're not paying, you're not paying attention.

Terry McLellan

Right, and so I have people that, like I said, I put 10% of my profits aside to help people that need the help but can't afford it. And I have a little form that they fill out that kinda talks a little bit about their expenses and what's coming in. And I do a couple of things. My husband is great at finance and he retired at 50. So if they're open to it.

Host

Thank you.

Host

Anyone have a question?

Terry McLellan

I let them sit down with somebody on how to, how can we help your budget to work good for you if they want to, we can't make them. It's an option that we offer. And then the other thing I do is I do give a discount and I'll do it for say 45 days and I will tell them, here's what I'm gonna do and here's the homework I'm gonna give you. So I'm gonna help them and I'm gonna give them tools to help themselves and where somebody who

Host

Right.

Terry McLellan

just wants to pay me because, for example, I have a client who's a lawyer and I take care of her mother. And she says, I can do this, but can I just pay you to do it? Well, she has the resources to do it. So sure, I'll take your money and I'll do it for you. On somebody who doesn't have the ability to do that, I give them the tools to help themselves. I give the other people the tools too. But if she's like, I have the resources to pay you, I'll take your money all day long.

Host

Sure, sure, sure.

Terry McLellan

over here I'll give you the tools and I'll say, hey, call your insurance. Be prepared. You might be on the phone for an hour. So I'm going to help them. I'm going to discount it. I'm going to do some pro bono and then they're going to be set up, hopefully, the next time to be able to help themselves better. I give back in my church, my leadership staff, my pastors, if they have any need, I help them.

Host

now.

Terry McLellan

pro bono as a way of giving back to my church. My pastor feeds me spiritually. If they need help medically, I will do pro bono for them. So I have ways to do it.

Host

beautiful.

And you hear that a lot in the space that people, you know, the ones who didn't go into it for the money, which is the vast majority, because it's not one of those things like a nurse where you just get plugged in and get a salary, you still have to work for it. There is a passion to help people. And so you do see, you know, most of the advocates I speak to did start by working for free just because it was like a default place. And then they're like, well, you know, I can't afford to live and do this for free. So let's figure out the business side of things.

Before we jump in, because I know you have a lot of good experience on that side of the world as well in terms of the business and kind of structuring things, just to finish up on the summit, do you have any highlights and would you recommend it to people in the advocacy space for next year?

Terry McLellan

I would absolutely recommend it to people in the advocacy space. And I would also say, if you're considering becoming an advocate, go to the healthcare summit. I think next year it's gonna be in Vegas. And I will say greater national advocates. I mean, Brad did an incredible job of having a great corner section where people could come and meet with advocates and talk with advocates and also has updated the website.

Host

Mm-hmm.

Terry McLellan

And if you don't know as an independent advocate, you can have a profile on greater national advocates and it doesn't cost you a dime. And it's a great way not only for people to find you, but it's also a great way. I have people that call me and say, I need an advocate in Washington state. I can get on greater national advocates and I can look for an advocate in that area. And I can refer out. And if there's not one close by or whatever,

A lot of us do remote and can do nationally. So if I can't find somebody close in boots on the ground, I do say to them, hey, call me back because it doesn't mean I can't help you. It just might look a little different. And so to me, the highlight was that corner, but also Chakow had done a survey on people's responses to advocates.

Host

Right, right.

Terry McLellan

And that survey, the results were incredible. And I would encourage anybody to get a hold of that and read it. They did not pay anybody for answers. So I feel like the results are probably.

Host

Can you give us a, can you give us the like, you know, elevator summary pitch of, of what you found interesting? Well, just the sentiment, just the sentiment.

Terry McLellan

Ooh, I might do a bad job. I think they were asking questions like, have you used an advocate? Did you find them helpful? And I think kind of the summary was from doctors, from patients and from hospitals that they were well-received more than not and that people felt like they were helped and that they would benefit from continuing to use an advocate. And I'm going to use that research when I meet with my

Host

Okay.

Host

That's great.

Terry McLellan

government officials. So.

Host

Yeah, that's good ammunition for sure. So your advocacy company is called Sun Nav. Um, what what's the before we dive into exactly what you provide? Where's the name come from?

Terry McLellan

Yeah.

Terry McLellan

I love that. So God talks to me in butterflies. And probably 30 years ago, I was in a small group setting with four or five women. And personally, I was battling with some personal trauma, abuse trauma growing up. And these women were praying with me and encouraging me. And one day, one of the ladies showed up, she actually happened to be my young adult youth pastor. And she had...

Host

You know, you have nothing.

Host

Thank you.

Terry McLellan

and I actually have it. She had a stained glass butterfly and she said, Terry, I was praying for you. And God told me, don't try to be perfect on earth. So if you know about a butterfly, butterflies are first caterpillars, then they go into the cocoon and they're in that cocoon and they morph and then they break out. And when they break out, they're a butterfly. But if you help that butterfly break out, it will die. So you have to let it do the hard work.

of breaking out. So ever since that was given to me, what I felt like the word of the Lord was for me is don't try to be a butterfly on earth. You'll get your wings when you're in heaven. So you're constantly working on being that better person. Well then when you look at the butterfly and how they operate, they navigate by their antennae and they know where the sun's going to be and where the dark's going to be by their antennae.

And because we are navigators and help people navigate the healthcare system, I just felt like it was a really great way to name a business, have an icon that I love and colors I love. So sun, so butterflies are navigated by the sun as an advocate. I'm going to help you navigate the healthcare system in its brightness and in its darkness.

Host

Mm-hmm.

Host

And your cocoon was 30 years. Well, I totally get it. I think it's, yeah, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. And I was going to say like your cocoon was 30 years in the medical space. And so you emerge. And so now you're the navigator helping people kind of stuck in their own muck a little bit. I think it's beautiful. Um, you, you don't just offer advocacy services and this is, this is really interesting, so you offer coaching because.

Terry McLellan

And for me, it's a little bit of a play on words because sun.

Host

It's such a new field and because it's such a, uh, different way of going about helping people, right? You're not, like I said before, plugging into a hospital and becoming a nurse and getting a salary. So a lot of people kind of get confused as to how to get off the ground and start their business and you've developed a coaching program. Is that right? So tell me, tell me more about that.

Terry McLellan

Yes, sir. I call it, I call it Sun Nav Equip. And I do wanna say there are multiple resources when people are like, how do I get a website? How do I get the education, the BCPA? That's not what I do. What I do is once you have gotten all of that under your belt and you're probably still working full time and starting your business, cause you're like, okay.

When do I jump ship and go full-time business because I still got to put a roof over my head? And so what I do is I've been a part of a lot of independent advocate kind of encouraging groups and we all help each other. And my husband actually said, "'Terry, you're doing a lot of coaching "'and there's probably a space for this.'" And so I got my first two clients kind of before I even developed.

a coaching program where it's like, okay, why did you start? What's your why? Where are you at? What do you need help with? And then other things like you're enough. You know, you have what it takes. Rely on your education and your background. So I created a 12 step program. And when I call it coaching, it's really kind of more like encouraging you

you got this vision and the vision isn't wrong. And you've got all the things in place. Now you need the next step, which is finding the clients. And sometimes in finding the clients, you have to be comfortable in your own skin. A lot of us as nurses were helpers. A lot of us were codependent. So when somebody comes to us and says, I can't afford to pay, the first thing we wanna do is help them for nothing. And I've had to learn to get a little tough skin and say,

Okay, let's look at what can you afford, you know, and let's really have those hard conversations. So I help people learn how to get their 30 minute consultation to 20 minutes and close the sale, you know what I mean? And God has gifted me in that and I can help other people do that. So we call that Sunab Equip and I'm able to help people. We have a client right now out of New Jersey that we're working with.

Host

Yeah.

Host

Right.

Terry McLellan

and she actually started a nonprofit advocacy business and she's like struggling with getting grants and stuff and one of the things that we talked about is, okay, let's have a subsidiary for-profit advocacy business so that you can funnel your nonprofit with your for-profit. So that's kind of one of the things we talked about and I met her at the HAS Conference, so another reason to go to the HAS Conference

and meet other people. And that was one of our first meetings and she's already emailed me a couple of times and she's like, oh my gosh, you've been so helpful, so great, so wonderful, and this is what we're gonna do and I can't wait till our next meeting to talk about next steps. And I just kind of slow it down because sometimes we think so globally and we want the end, but we gotta go through the first five steps to get to the end. And sometimes you know you've got what it takes

Host

Yeah.

Terry McLellan

You just need to be told you got what it takes. So that's what I do. And I believe in doing it affordably. It's $1,200 a year, which is $100 a class, one class a month, and you get multiple emails, texts, phone calls. I'm not out there to make a buck. Advocates are trying to get a business going. I'm not trying to bleed you. I'm trying to encourage you. So that's what I do. And I also, fortunately,

Host

Yeah.

Host

We are.

Terry McLellan

have several businesses in the area that are not advocates, that they're just women in business and they're like, the principles are the same, Terry, please coach me. So I've done that with a couple, I've got a girl that has an eyebrow business.

Host

Is it exclusive to women? Could men join?

Terry McLellan

So men can join. Definitely Zoom has taught us a lot. I am very conscientious to make sure that I am appropriate professionally and that when I'm meeting with people of the opposite sex that were in public or on Zoom, I definitely want to remain a professional atmosphere. So is it easier for me with women? Yes, but I do have a couple of men that I've coached as well.

Host

Thank you.

Terry McLellan

and it's gone great.

Host

I interrupted you, I'm sorry, you were saying someone who was in eyebrow threading, was it?

Terry McLellan

Yeah, well, they do the I guess it's called eyebrow tattooing, but they do my eyebrows were done by her matter of fact, barter barter. So I bartered eyebrows for coaching, you know what I mean? And she made me look awesome. And but she's, you know, it was a one, a couple of visits for me, but she gets me for a year. And she's, you know, one of the things I love about her, she started her business. And one of the questions I ask is,

Host

I will.

Host

That's great.

Terry McLellan

How much business debt do you have? How much money do you need to make to pay your debt? And she couldn't answer those questions. So I'm like, okay, before we go anywhere else, we need to answer those questions. Are you on a budget? What's your goal? Is your goal to leave your full-time job to do this full-time? So those are the kind of the things that I would say, I'm gonna say young people, but it's not always young people. Sometimes it's just, it's a new field and it's scary and you're not sure how to jump in, you know?

Host

What's the easiest way for people to reach out to you? Is it through your website?

Terry McLellan

Yes, my website is one of the easiest ways to reach out to me. I'm also on Greater National Advocates, also on the BCPA. And I just started learning, and I'm going to butcher this, but I took a class the other day on how to use my mapping to be able to create ways for people to find you in your local community and across the United States. And we just started doing that.

about a week ago and I'm getting a lot of traffic from that. And it's called My Google Maps. And what you do, no, not Google Maps, it's my, so it's personal. So what I do is I, for example, I want people in Collin County when they're at the hospital and they think they need an advocate, I want them to find me. So I created,

Host

You're mapping? I haven't heard of that. My mapping. Oh, Google Maps. Got it, got it.

Terry McLellan

all of the hospitals in Collin County, and I created a little blurb, and I put the website to my address. But then the other thing I did is I did some layers, and I put local pharmacies, local caregivers, and all of it drives back to my business. So if you're sitting in the ER in McKinney, and you type in anything for Navigator, healthcare, whatever, my business pops up. Yeah. So that is a...

Host

Oh, wow. That's great. Great idea. Great tip. I'm going to look into that.

Terry McLellan

I'm a part of a networking group that does training, and that was one of our trainings two weeks ago. And it is absolutely changed, and you don't pay for it, guys, it's free. So it's awesome. Yeah, free is for me.

Host

Wow. Great tip. Great tip.

Terry McLellan

I'm sorry.

Host

Um, so the, the link to your website will be in the show notes, but anybody listening to this in their car or anywhere and, and can't see it. It's it's sun nav HCA for healthcare advocacy.com. So it's sun and then navs S U N A V H C A.com to get in touch with Terry. Terry, thank you so much for being here and sharing all of your, your stories and your wisdom. I really appreciate it.

Terry McLellan

Thank you so much. We love you guys. We love greater national advocates.